EU - In or Out?

[Helios]

You don't complain about the House of Lords.
Why is that?

[RB]

Because oversight is important to maintain democracy. Unlike EU commissioners, the Lords can't instigate new laws they only act to reality check them. It's unimportant if they're elected or not, they just need to be experienced which for the most part, they are.

The EU works backwards. Commissioners propose legislation then MEPs squabble over them and a shit bastardised unworkable version gets implemented. Typically.

[Helios]

How can it not matter that Lords are not elected by the public?
Don't they get selected by MPs in the Commons?
What stops MPs from selecting their BFFs for the Lords to help them approve their twisted policies?

Who is accountable in our Government now?
Who do we nail to a cross when things go wrong post Brexit?

Our Government now is just as unaccountable to us as you say the EU is.
Everyone that pushed for Brexit has fucked off because they didn't plan on winning, know it's a bad idea and have no actual plan.
Or do you not see it that way?

[Ekona]

HoL have no real power, they can only hold things up. They're just there to make a PITA of themselves.

[Ekona]

Full speed ahead now for Brexit!

What do we think, triggering on the 31st?

[RB]

I think next week.

[Ekona]

Ooh, do it on the 17th this week, Paddy's Day!

You know what? I reckon they should ban any politicians from either the U.K. or the EU taking part in the negotiating process. Think about it: At some point one of them is going to make a decision that has nothing to do with what's best for either side, but because it's politically sensitive. Might be us saying "Nope, no bloody foreigners" to help the UKIP lot, or it might be them going "Nope, trade tariff much higher" as otherwise other countries might want out too.

We should just let proper business people do it instead. They won't give a fig about politics, just about getting the right deal. Send in The Branson!

[RB]

But he was a massive remainer. Let Stephen Hawking do it.

[Ekona]

But then we'd never get it done in the two year window, that guy isn't exactly known as a speedy speaker.

[Joe]

At some point one of them is going to make a decision that has nothing to do with what's best for either side, but because it's politically sensitive

You make it sound like that isn't already happening right now.

Voting against securing EU citizens' and UK nationals' rights isn't best for anyone, yet it's what has happened. Why? Because MPs are now too scared to do their jobs and represent the best interests of their constituents lest it be construed as obstructing Article 50. The press and the hardcore Leavers have turned "the will of the people" into a weapon with which to beat anyone who dares suggest compromise or negotiation or protecting anything that anyone opposed to a "hard Brexit" might care about.

[RB]

The lord's amendment was to only guarantee the rights of EU nationals here. Only Europe can guarantee the rights of Brits in Europe which is why MPs took the right decision of leaving that to the exit negotiations so that EU nationals and Brits in Europe get the same rights.
Guaranteeing EU nationals something with nothing in place for Brits would be retarded.

[Joe]

"Retarded" might be the case if the two were equal but we're talking about 3 million EU nationals over here vs 1.2 million Brits in Europe. Securing equal rights for both groups during the exit negotiations still represents a poor deal for us. We would have been better off taking that issue out of the equation before triggering Article 50 as a show of good faith both to those 3 million citizens and to Europe, setting the right tone for constructive negotiations and demonstrating that the UK isn't about to use people as pawns.

I mean fuck, Guy Verhofstadt has already stated that retaining those equal rights is what he wants, yet May's spokesperson has said "It’s not something that we have ever proposed or said that we are looking at". Reckless.

[RB]

Given how little the EU has offered other than threats, I doubt that good faith will get us anything except fucked over.

[Ekona]

Maybe those equal rights are that everyone has to go back to where they came from? Start again, apply for visas, that sort of thing.

Not exactly a vote winner, but we shall see. Certainly I'd expect all foreign nationals, be that Brits in Marbella or Polish groundworkers in Harlow to have to apply for visas, even if it's just a paperwork exercise.

[Joe]

Ha. You make it sound like kicking out time at a pub.

Rather than, like, families being ripped apart and lives turned upside down for no fucking reason other than the demented pursuit of hardline isolationism.